*Sigh* Affirmative action includes the outreach that you are straining so hard to define out of it so that you can continue to cling to your view of teh world. And you claimed that at its extreme end affirmative action includes quotas. Which my link advised you was untrue. And my many links demonstrate the context of choosing a woman or other minority all other things being equal is the fact that women and minorities are not going to be hired otherwise. Period. Until employers stop being bigoted asses, that fact will remain, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

Interestingly, I wonder why is that while sparky and I have offered tons of links to back up our assertions, you have continued to make your own assertions without any citations whatever? At the moment I am getting the impression that you have made up your mind based on anecdata, which as we all know, is NOT data.